Jultra Truth. Freedom. Oh and the end of New Labour and Tony Blair, Ian Blair, ID cards, terror laws and the NWO and their lies

Sunday, September 10, 2006

9/11: David Ray Griffin & David Shayler

David Ray Griffin lecture London

Yesterday I had the privilege to attend the London event with David Ray Griffin and David Shayler: Was 9/11 an inside job ? The event got an excellent plug in yesterday's Guardian.

A Christian theologian, David Ray Griffin is one of the most fluent, eloquent, impressive and persuasive people to write and talk on 9/11, and who's contributions to 9/11 study, critique and discourse have simply been enormous, so I was very much looking forward to this lecture.

After the introductions by a leading UK 9/11 Truth activist; a fellow called Andy, Shayler gave an excellent and very down to Earth and very decent speech which covered himself, his background in MI5 and 9/11 which progressed into a particularly outstanding section about liberty and democracy in the UK which got a large round of applause.

Griffin gave an excellent and detailed speech which covered a great deal of ground from the alleged hijackers, NORAD's response, the destruction of the WTC, the Pentagon and the political backdrop to 9/11.

It was very impressive in it's detail although I personally felt it was not quite as strong as his famous Madison speech which was aired on C-SPAN, or quite as fluid and as simple to follow as some of his many radio appearences.

Unless one is familiar with it, it was easy to get lost on the significances of the problems in the NORAD story, which revolve around several different and contradictory accounts given by the US military. To be fair Griffin seemed quite tired as I believe he recently gave a speech in Amsterdam and was interviewing much of yesterday with the BBC. I believe he and possibly Shayler will appear on the 'Heaven and Earth' show tommorow morning.

Several times though Griffin did get into his most powerful flow, particularly on Blair and on the quite serious issue of 9/11 Commission executive director Philip Zelikow, and overall his presentation brought him a long and well deserved standing ovation.

One very serious recent issue which was raised in a question & answer sesssion is that fellow 9/11 scholar Professor Steven E. Jones has apparently been suspended from BYU. Griffin advised UK 9/11 activists to write to BYU to express their concern which I thoroughly agree with. Jones is a long standing professor at BYU of outstanding credentials.

All in all, it was a very interesting positive experience, and UK 9/11 activists should be extremely proud at an excellent and successful event that packed the hall. As well as an extremely brief conversation with an exhausted DRG, I got the chance to chat with David Shayler afterwards, who was drawing quite a crowd around him. I was a little surprised to hear him talk about holograms, and it seems Shayler may be a 'no-planer'.

I personally agree with those like Paul Watson who recently warned that this theory is sending people down the wrong path.

I should stress though Shayler seems as genuinely concerned as everyone is about the state of the world, and his speech on civil liberties was superb, hard hitting and down to Earth, so I honestly don't know why he was discussing this theory.

Also the people I met at the event were all very friendly, decent and well-informed people, and all genuinely concerned about what the hell is happening in this world. Naturally, you can't blame them.

Whatever you feel about 9/11, you come away from the event with no doubt that the world is in real crisis and the direction of the US and UK government is now so monstrously deformed and detatched from all reality, that it is simply putting everything in peril. The strong feeling among attendees was that 9/11 is not going to be swept off the table.

Some brief video clips I took:

Griffin urges new 9/11 Truth action:

Griffin talks about Blair's dossier on Afghanistan:

David Shayler:

Some photos below:


Anonymous Anonymous said...

David Shayler is still working for MI5. The fact that you report that he is a 'no planer' confirms this for me. I was at this event, and was very surprised by the fact that Shayler and his colleague are involved in this at all. There is no reason for him to have attached himself to the 911 'movement'. There is no reason why he should have been a speaker at this event. He is not a key researcher; he is merely another person who has watched the documentaries and come to the same conclusions as we all have (if we take him at face value). He has no inside information about this subject, no special insight that pertains directly to the events. He is just a celebrity whistle blower (on the surface).

I was immediately made suspicious of the Shayler involvement by several statements that were made. Firstly, he recounted how a journalist from The Spectator entered his home for an interview, and then proceeded to write a hit piece about him and the 911 movement. Secondly, the call to attend a music concert at the end of the lectures, that "the anti terror squad wants to shut down" and that we should all "make sure we are there to fight for freedom of speech". Finally, there was a call to attend a demonstration outside the American Embassy, in another impotent confrontation. These two actions, which are guaranteed to achieve absolutely noting, and the call for them coming from Shayler, combined with the absolute nonsense of the 'no plane' position and his fake naive shock at being the subject of an anti 911 truth hit piece, convince me absolutely that he and his colleague are very probably paid infiltrators and a disruptors.

The facts about '911' have been spread in a way that has nothing to do with direct confrontation. Anyone that calls for it is calling for a diversion of resources away from actions that spread the message. They are calling for people to be needlessly arrested and catalogued in the very police state system that has been created by '911'. The same goes with attending concerts that have been threatened with cancellation by the anti terror police. It would be far better if all the people who were going to attend that concert took that money and duplicated DVDs and spread them to complete strangers. It would be far better if, instead of paying British Rail to arrive in London for an insane confrontation with police outside of the American Embassy, to instead, take that train fare and buy a stack of blank DVDs so that 'Terrorstorm' can get into more homes.

David Shayler and his colleague, by their attachment to the UK 911 truth movement, taint it. These people, wether they are working for MI5 or not, unbalance the focus, skew the debate and cause time to be wasted. I urge you to shun them, and to concentrate on getting the facts out to the population one DVD at a time.

It would have been far better had a call been made at the end of this lecture for all those who had the capability to copy DVDs to make themselves known, then all those who could not, be divided up equally between these equipped people. Then each of these 'copying cell' members would feed the copier with blank DVDs, who would return them to the members of his cell for distribution with Terrorstorm burned onto them. This distribution, and the expense of it would be in place of paying to attend rock concerts and pointless demonstrations. Sadly, in the company of Shayler, and judging by the response he got just by being there, something like this would not fly with a star-struck audience; this is what the Shaylers of the world want, be it at the behest of MI5 or just so he has something to do, the effect is the same; diversion of attention, distraction from the mission and time ticking away as we head towards total enslavement.

The colleague who attended this talk with me watched David Ray Griffin on Gloria Hunniford's programme this morning. There were of course, the usual attacks from the animal brigade (Hitchin) and Shayler made his appearance. I put it to you that the spread of DVDs like Terrorstorm into every household will make it impossible for the likes of Hitchin and any other attack piece author and paid disruptor to spread lies and disinformation about '911'. It is vitally important that we do not rely on the media at all to spread this message. Never before has it been possible to spread information so easily as it is today. We must take advantage of this and the available tools to short circuit the TV, the newspapers and their pernicious influence. That means copying DVDs so that whenever the talking heads try and dismiss the facts about '911' everyone already knows that the towers were brought down by controlled demolition, because they have all seen Terrorstorm and had it proved to them.

By all means, go on television programs, speak to newspapers and do the rest, but without the hand to hand spread of the facts, the mass media will be able to pour cold water lies on the facts and convince many people that the lie is the truth, that hot is cold.

1:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No Plane Theory = Disinfo = COINTELPRO/Agent = Shayler.

1:54 PM  
Anonymous Reader said...

It's pretty much a rule of thumb and not hard to figure out that:

Ex-Bush Admin
Current Bush Admin
Current military employees

are often either the strongest advocates of no-plane theories, or are against either LIHOP or MIHOP completely and promote incompetence:

Morgan Reynolds - no planes
David Shayler - no planes
Bill Christison (former CIA) - no planes
Fred Burke (Bush Admin, wanttoknow.info) - no planes
Barbara Honegger - no planes
John Prados - (NSArchive, DC) pure incompetence

etc. . . add to the list

It is crystal clear what the agenda is. Speak up against any public appearances of people connected to the US govt who advocate any NO PLANE theories (including at the Pentagon) or INCOMPETENCE.

7:27 PM  
Blogger J.UL1R4 said...

Anon 1, thanks for the post, yes I hear you. Well i'm trying to be positive, there were also a lot of things I heard Shayler say that evening which were down to Earth and true, but yes I think many people will agree with you, there is a lot of common sense in sticking to issues and methods that will work, and being very skeptical when things like this are thrown up.

I did notice Shayler and his partner seem to have something of an entourage with them, which seemed like reasonable, warm intelligent people so it's strange.

I don't know is the short answer, but yes I would certainely err on the side of 'warm and friendly skepticism' towards things like this.

And I agree people should not get distracted in the nonsense and periphery and concentrate on getting the information out as much as they possibly can. Good points. Thanks for posting.

Anon2: Yes, I personally feel these kinds of theories are not helpful.

Reader: well I didn't know Christison was a no planer, I heard his interview with Alex Jones.

That piece by Reynolds and Woods attacking Steven Jones was very odd to put it politely, and to be honest I'm a little concerned, in trying to please everybody which is perfectly reasonable, perhaps at times too much sanctory is being given to this sort of stuff.

To be fair we also have to be a little cautious about attacking others as part of some COINTELPRO thing as this can be just as destructive, but perhaps, I say perhaps there is a case for looking at mainstream politics and (periodically at least) disconnecting from stuff that isn't going to get you elected so to speak. These kind of theories about holograms or bluescreens masking missiles or 'formations of entomopters' etc are not going to get you elected.

12:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In case you have any doubt about Shayler, read the entire piece that appeared in New Stateman, where he is quoted as saying, "Oh, * it, I'm just going to say this," he tells her. "Yes, I believe no planes were involved in 9/11." Read if for yourelf.

Now, if this were said about him and it were not true, he would be shouting from every rooftop that 'they' are trying to smear him. But as we hear from Jultra, he really did say it, and meant to say it.

If he believes this he is insane. Clearly he is not insane.

There is no way that he did not understand that this idea could be used to discredit anyone that promotes a case other than the official one. As a person who understands Psi-Ops, he would know what saying this means. He did it deliberately, there can be no doubt about it.

Now, all over the place, people are talking about these absurd 'no plane' 'theories' and the people who propagate them are being dovetailed into the legitimate questioners of the official story. Every timne you read about '911 Truth' you also read about these idiotic 'no planer' ideas, as if they have the same weight as the well researched, serious studies that have been done.

If david shalyer and annie 'méchant' machon are not stupid, not insane and not on the wrong side, they would NEVER say anything like this. Being victims of the press themselvs for years, they would know intimately how spin works, both from the side of the press and the side of deliberately directed spin engineered by spooks.

This I am afraid, is a pure example of two people who have been carefully groomed to be accepted by anyone who is against the government. Their credentials are impecable. They will and are accepted unquestioniningly into any group that is anti-government. As such they are perfect infiltrators. No one ever thinks for an instant that both of them never left the employ of the government. This means that they, by having intimate inside access, have forknowlegde of every plan, every strategy and...everytyhing that 911 truth is set to do.

Be very afraid of these people. At the very least, like anon 1 said, shun them completely.

10:50 AM  
Anonymous Veronica said...

As someone who was actually involved (to some extent) in the planning for the event, I can assure you that the interference from the Anti-Terrorist Squad aws VERY VERY REAL.

It took all of the preceeding week, and waving an associate of Gareth Pierce under the police noses, in order to get them to back off.

The original police DEMAND was for the NAMES, ADDRESSES and DATES OF BIRTH (to be supplied within 24 HOURS), of all musicians in the various bands.

We (the 9/11 Group) 'politely' told the police where to go.

Obviously no-one who commented about David Shayler had ever bothered to go to the London meetings (otheriwse you would have known all this before you put electronic ink to electronic paper).

Know the facts before you criticise.

1:11 PM  
Anonymous Veronica said...

Oh ... and by the way ... even though David is wrong about the 'holograms', he is perfectly right insofar as there were no commercial airliners in volved in the 'impacts' at Ground Zero.

The North Tower was hit by 'something' (Blob11) that was NOT a commercial airliner.

The South Tower was 'hit' by a 'cartoon' - a Computer-Generated Image (possibly covering a missile).

Like plagiarist David Ray Griffin, you have quite obviously never done any REAL research into 9/11, otherwise you would know this as well.

Plagiarst? Yes. NPH was everyone else's work, and not credited. (He learned his lesson and credited a few people in O&D)

Liar? Yes. DRG was told about this - AND AGREED WITH IT - BEFORE the 2nd Edition of NPH. However he has continued to promulgate the lies about AA11, UA175, AA77 & UA93.

1:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As someone who was actually involved (to some extent) in the planning for the event, I can assure you that the interference from the Anti-Terrorist Squad aws VERY VERY REAL.

No one is saying tha the anti terrorist squad threat wasnt real you imbecile. We are saying that this concert is a pointless confrontation, and that anyone who promotes it is a nincompoop as you clearly are.

Ideally there would be no outward appearance of the massive spread of information about '911'. Everyone in the country would be informed 'by surprise' thanks to the good work of DVD copiers all over the country. We don't need your pathetic concerts, moneywasting fundraisers and illigitimate confrontations with authority. You, and the scum you work for are the enemy. David Shayler is the enemy. Annie Machon is the enemy. All of you irrational morons, along with Bliar and Bush are the enemy.

David Shayler and his bosses are very clever long term thinkers. They have insinuated themselvs into the minds and works of legitimate people who have a grasp on both the truth and realtiy (unlike you). We will not allow this agent to contaminate and taint our work. We will disown him publicly, and continue our work. Mark my words.

It is in this spirit that I cordially invite you to fuck off back to the huge building by the Thames where your bosses and your cubicle reside. You will not win this. We are going to smash you into dust, just like the Thermate did to the three buildings at the WTC site.

You absolute bitch.

5:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone want a cuppa?

10:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good Lord, how can anyone interested in the 'truth' rule out any theory about 911? If you did, you would be no better then the Kean Commission.

Why do some people see this 'no planes' idea as such a threat? Are they the same people whobelieve there was no plane at the Pentagon? Hmmm.

The 'no planes' idea implicates the MSMedia in the cover-up.
It's funny how worried some seem to be now about wooing this very same media from being 'gatekeepers' after distrusting them for years about their lack of integrity and enthusiasm for real journalism. Have they changed so much that we should throw in our lot and trust them now or are we going to settle for a 'limited hangout' and leave that same presumed apparatus of deceit in place for the forseeable future?

I'm undecided about 'no planes' but I'm not going to ignore it for the sake of convenience and speed to get a result. Research such as Nico Haupt's either shows a reckless imagination or the work of inspired genius, or even both. I suggest not overlooking it just for the sake of 'fashion' in favour of trust in, for example, Alex Jones and the Johnny-come-lately Scholars group who seem to be getting heads bowed in deference to their academic credentials, rather than 5 years of unstinting research.

10:42 PM  
Anonymous Reader said...

>>Good Lord, how can anyone interested in the 'truth' rule out any theory about 911? If you did, you would be no better then the Kean Commission.

This entire post is pure disinfo. Read it and learn.

Promoters of "no plane" hoaxes
sabotaged the 9/11 truth movement

* who still promotes "no planes?"
* whistleblowers who do and do not promote "no planes"
* list of no plane promoters

5:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Personally I think it makes more sense to use real planes. Its one less thing to worry about. But I have to say the venom with which the beam weapon theories is attacked is just beyond belief. In the Kennedy assassination as with 9/11 the biggest clues are right there for you to see. With Kennedy it was on the Zapruder film. Head being thrown violently back. No brainer. Shooter position in front of the vehicle, or at least "not" where claimed. With 9/11 the problem with thermite or should I say "just" thermite being used is the video clips and footage of "the spire" where my eyes tell me that theres something really strange going on. I dont know how you can look at this and say yep....thermite. Thats just so incredulous.
Note: I am a 37 year old Scottish male, who wook up to 911 and the problems after watching loose change. Im angry, upset, scared and dumbfounded. I have no ulterior motive. I agree with some of the thermite theories and also some of the beam weapon explanations. I have a hard time believing in mini nukes and holograms, though the planes sinking into the building like butter does seem strange to me. but perhaps the outer structure of the buildings isnt so strong as to withstand an impact of that velocity, so I dont think its worth dwelling on. The Spire, however, is a massive anomaly. The video and the stills clearly show iron or steel construction material turning to dust in mid air. Its not dust obscuring the fall, just as Kennedys head shot isnt from the book depository. Its that plain and simple to see. The truth we will never know for sure, but my instinct tells me its 2 or more methods, which makes sense for those hoping for a succesful demolition. It has the added bonus, probably unintentional of dividing those trying to discover the truth and setting them against each other. Am I the only one who looks at it this way? I think its more than foolish to claim you have a handle on exactly what brought down the towers. Ive never yet heard an adequate explanation of the spires disintegration within the thermite explanation. For that matter the beam explanation seems overly complex. But regardless this anomaly is there......and its massive. Like I said its Kennedys head being thrown back. To me its something I can look at, point to and say "that is not jet fuel in action". Thats probably whats important. Show that clip to 10 reasonably minded people, and 9 will walk away with their illusion of what happened shattered, or will be compelled to look deeper.

1:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

David Shayler espoused the hologram theory shortly before developing what many would identify as paranoid schizophrenic-like symptoms.

The metaphysical notions that have lately become his focus seem to preclude him from any future as an agent of disinformation.

I suspect he never was. The idea that he is still working for MI5 doesn't accord with the efforts he made to whistleblow on the Gadaffi plot and the time he spent in prison for this. All elaborate cover by MI5 to give him dissident credibility so that he could discredit 9/11 research several years later? I don't think so.

Listen to what his ex-intelligence colleague/girlfriend said about his "mental breakdown" in the Daily Mail: http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2007/08/13/david-shaylers-former-partner-reveals-how-the-bullying-state-crushed-him/

Watching recent videos of him talking about his Messiah experience, he no longer looks or sounds the sharp analytical man he clearly was. I think this is evident regardless of what he is saying.

Something has got to him for sure - either the huge pressure of taking on the State (as Annie Machon suggests) or some other covert attack on his mental wellbeing.

12:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dave Shayler is nuts. Trust me, I know him, though if I didn't actually know him, I too would believe he is still working for MI5.

1:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ever heard the expression "crazy like a fox" ??

If Shayler went "no-planes" and psycho at the same time, then it seems to me he did so to discredit his prior revelations under extreme pressure.

He probably did not feel safe any longer, and he saved his life by acting like a mad-man. Perhaps this was part of a deal made with his prior bosses at MI5 ... a scheme to exit the truth movement in exchange for his life.

Unfortunately, now that he has gone and done this what's his leverage to keep from being "suicided" by MI5?

If anyone knows him, they should keep in contact and watch out for his safety.

4:07 AM  
Anonymous EZ said...

Contrary to NIST & the US Government, there is overwhelming evidence to conclude that the planes seen on TV were the result of SFX special effects (TV fakery).

Many try to suppress this obvious fact, but to exclude other theories out of hand w/o examination is not only disingenuous, it's simply denial (a defence mechanism) and only results in a misinformed, skewed opinion.


There were no planes entering the WTC Towers on 911. Perhaps all the related films about 911 produced before and since were made to condition the public into acceptance of the official "planes" fantasy. Any discussion of planes on 911, passengers, hijackers, etc. all continue to help keep the fantasy alive.

Believing the government’s fairytale of planes colliding with the Towers is the main problem w/ fully understanding 911. The media was broadcasting fake, manipulated images of planes. Superimposing a plane on 911 was done w/ Wescam technology; it provided a single "live" feed from which all the TV networks broadcast. Other videos & images started to appear in the days, weeks & months following 911. All of them have anomalies & impossibilities which can only be explained by excluding planes.


Real planes would have been a potential liability for the perps on 911. It was easier to control the outcome of the event with much less risk by using the media to broadcast fake imagery. Real jets might miss their targets, get shot down, suffer pilot or computer errors, destroy or prematurely detonate any explosives, passengers could have overtaken the hijackers, and/or the plane might not inflict enough perceived damage to make a collapse believable.

A single fact which cannot be refuted is that a hollow aluminum plane (especially fragile wings) cannot slice through steel beams and concrete without any damage to the plane. News footage showing an airliner gliding into a Tower without any resistance is a cartoon. Aluminum planes are not built for impact and crumple immediately upon contact with solid objects; even a small bird can rip through a jet’s wing.


Furthermore, a large speeding jet’s vortex trails behind it creating a highly active atmosphere which follows in its path. Had a real plane impacted a WTC Tower, real film footage would have recorded the airliner’s vortex interacting with and violently dissipating the smoke from the alleged crash and the adjacent North Tower. No vortex literally means no planes on 911 (TV fakery).


During the South Tower "impact", fake TV footage shows a WTC Tower sealing itself around the plane during the alleged penetration. Still another too incredible to believe anomaly is the width of the plane’s purported gash didn't match the width of a Boeing 757’s wing span. Another widely publicized video shot by Scott Myers shows the forward fuselage of the "jet" exiting the South Tower, though other shots later reveal no exit hole.


To consider the media footage showing a plane slicing thru steel and concrete as reality is ludicrous. There were no planes; only spoofed images, manipulated witnesses and falsified evidence. America please wake up; the media was a complicit partner that was in on the crime from the beginning. In fact, the TV psyop 911 couldn't have been pulled off without the mass media’s assistance.


Actually "no planes on 911" is the only explanation that makes any sense. There are far too many disturbing questions left unanswered which only TV fakery can address.

Besides all the other impossibilities mentioned, why are there several "hijackers" still alive; some are even suing the US government to recover their reputation and stolen identity.

Why have so many of the purported plane "victims" not been listed in the Social Security Death Index? ...and their families not claimed their death benefits.

Why are there missing passenger lists and zero so-called Middle Eastern hijacker names on the flight manifest?

Why in the entire history of aviation has a plane never disappeared from a crash - yet on 911, four of them did in a single day? All plane parts are numbered; not one plane part from 911 has been identified by its number.

How could supposedly inexperienced "pilots" who couldn't even fly a Cessna...

* threaten & subdue everyone on board a large airliner
* break into the locked cockpits w/ their hands
* kill all the ex-military pilots and copilots

...then navigate a large Boeing jetliner above the clouds all over several states without airport tower assistance, with nav systems & radios turned off, and fly with pinpoint accuracy into a building that they couldn't even see?

It's common knowledge amongst pilots that a Boeing 757 cannot fly at 500+ MPH at sea level - the air is too thick. That's an airliner's cruising speed attained at high 30,000+ ft. altitudes.

You can call Boeing; even they admit that - and they have been recorded in phone conversations recently saying so.

When an airliner is close to the ground it's either taking off or landing. If forced to throttle to cruising speed at low altitude, it would break apart in mid-air.


Exposing "no planes on 911" is probably the most important story to people beyond chemtrails, depleted uranium poisoning and nanotech genocide.

Americans are TV hypnotized, drugged up, dumbed down and so utterly dependent that in general they are incapable of critical thought and are disinterested in discovering how the media is adversely affecting their lives.

No planes on 911 and deception by the media is the Holy Grail of 911. It marks the beginning of an Orwellian double-speak mind-set which is now accepted as normal by the populace.

No-planes on 911 is highly important as it exposes the real perps behind this mass murder and offers justice to the thousands of people killed that day.

Without the covert deception by the media in collusion with the enemy in control of America’s military intelligence, 911 could not have happened.

The media was directly involved in 911 and together with a criminal government has helped diminish Americans’ freedoms and launch unending wars against innocent nations.

Don't even consider making another comment on 911 till you have watched the "September Clues" video series:


With so much evidence pointing to collusion between the military industrial complex, the US government and especially the media, very few have sought relief in the court systems, or via conventional mass media. Morgan Reynolds has filed numerous suits in federal court to no avail. His latest attempt and subsequent appeal were both summarily squashed before having even been properly heard. You can read the details on his website.


If one seeks only that evidence which fits the official explanation, then that is what you will find. That’s not science, it’s not objective thinking, it’s not even good common sense.

It is impossible in the real world for a plane to behave in such manner as per the official account. So long as you continue to deny that one simple concept you will be forever lost in endless pursuit of an answer that will never come.


# # #

8:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh dear.

4:12 PM  
Anonymous Cookie said...

David's life and safety is clearly threatened. I don't believe he is a disinformation agent or provacateur. His "mental state", and hologram theory are both designed to save his life from MI6. I do disagree with him when he says that "they saw an opportunity in plans laid down by genuine terrorists to carry out an operation that would shock the world" He unexplainably insinuates that there were terrorists that crashed planes into buildings and the elements of the state conspired with them. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5403286136814574974# (2:42-2:58)

1:11 PM  
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4:41 AM  

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